Foreword by Rob Dwyer:  I'm very proud to be publishing Sabbathlive's very 1st exclusive interview with one of the founding members of Black Sabbath - Mr. Bill Ward!!!  I must first thank Guillaume Roos for all he has done for Sabbathlive.  This is just one of many great things he has been doing for Sabbath fans, so I want to make a point to underline that.  I'm blessed to have him working with me.  And of course,  a loving thank you to Bill Ward for taking the time to answer Guillaume's questions.  I think you'll find Bill's answers to be honest, forthright and full of heart.  This humble man is not only one of the most influential drummers in the hard rock genre, he is also a great human being as well.

And of course, thanks to Liese Rugo for making this all possible!  Cheers to you both!

Los Angeles - April 23rd, 2005

First of all, Mister Ward, let me tell you how grateful I am that you accepted to answer my questions.  Ok, so let's start from the beginning: What led you to music and what's your musical formation?  Do you have any major influences?

Well, my musical influences as a child, I would say about 90% were all American big band music. There was some classical music that I enjoyed, but I was born in 1948.  So as a child growing up just after the Second World War, my mother and father had been somewhat influenced by what was then called "G.I. Music" or American music.  And that's where I heard the music.  (It was) when I was growing up as a child.  My mother and father had lots of records that they played from the American big bands like Count Basie, Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller...  That's what influenced me as a child.

What led me to music was, err...  [laugh]  Well, I just feel like a magnet to be honest!  I don't know.  There's something inside me that attracts me to music, as a moth would be to a flame, I guess.  I don't what that is, just an instinct.  And as far as I can remember back since I've been a small child, I've been very very attracted to music.

According to the legend, way back in 1969, while you were part of a blues / rock band called "Earth", you and your well known partners decided to end one of your shows with the first two songs you had written together - "Black Sabbath" and "Wicked World".  Do you have any memories about the crowd's reaction to those two songs?

Well, I wish that I did, but sadly my memory has faded over the years...  I'm sorry, I honestly can't remember that specific show.  I can remember when we started introducing our own material into the show.  I can remember the reactions from other shows when we first started doing that.  Everybody loved the music.  They thought it was incredible, you know, the reaction was electrifying.  Like an almost instantaneous amalgamation between the band and the audience!  [laugh]

Everybody loved it, but I would add to that, with the exception of when we went to New York for the first time.  (When) we played in New York, it was like the third or the fourth gig we ever did on that very first tour of America.  The New York audience just sat there.  We went on kicking a**, and you know, doing our show (the way we did in) 1970, and the New York audience just sat there and they didn't respond.  And after about the third or fourth song, the band became so frustrated with the audience that we actually started throwing things at them!  And then they reacted.  That night in New York, we played I think eight or nine encores.

Did these songs already sound like they did on the album?  Or were they more blues inspired as blues was the basis of most of your stage material at the time ?

The songs that you hear on the album, that's how they sounded.  Keep in mind that before we recorded that first album Black Sabbath, we'd been playing, I think, most of those songs in the clubs for at least a year to eighteen months.  So, the very first song that we wrote was "Wicked World" and we'd been playing that as you hear it.  You probably know that we only had about two days or so to record our first album, so whatever we were playing in the clubs, that's how we printed it in the recording studio.

It has been said that the members of Led Zeppelin used to come jamming with you during the early 70's.  Is it true John Bonham broke your drum kit ?

[Laugh]  No, John Bonham didn't break my drum kit.  I had a fear that he would!  [laugh]  I had a very healthy fear of that possibly happening.  But I was touchy about my drums anyway, I didn't like anybody touching them - especially Bonham!  If he sat behind them, I didn't know how they would come out.

I had known John Bonham since we were fifteen or sixteen years old and we would often meet in the clubs.  You know, we met a lot of musicians in the clubs.  John Bonham was busy in the bands he was in and had a lot of work.  We would just cross each other's path each week.  They would just be leaving a club to go to another club to do a gig and we would be coming in to do a gig, whatever band I was in (at the time).  We all knew each other, I mean, the rest of the guys too, before we were even Black Sabbath.  Everybody knew each other.  All the musicians kind of hang out together at times...  What I'm trying to say right now is that I had seen John destroy a couple of kits or pretty much level some kits to the ground in the early days when we were teenagers so...  But it never happened with my drum kit.  John Bonham did play my drums, but he never broke them.  It was just my own fear that he might!  [laugh]

Can you tell us more about your relationship with Led Zeppelin?

Well, we honestly respected the band.  We'd known Robert Plant, of course, about the same we knew John Bonham before Zeppelin.  He was in a band called The Band Of Joy for a long time.  So, you know, it wasn't unusual for us to see Robert around town.  But when they first came out and that first track came on the air, it was just absolutely phenomenal.

We were going along in Sabbath, thinking that we were doing pretty good and coming along pretty good.  We [had] played a concert in Carlisle (in Northern England) and somebody who was a fan of ours used to let us sleep over night at his house.  So we were resting there after the concert at his house when he put on the Zeppelin album.  We all sat down and listened to it thinking, "Oh my God!  What are these guys doing?" [laugh]  It was just like coming out of nowhere.  Because to that point, even though (The Who, you know...) there were some heavy bands around, Cream had established a lot of new ways of playing hard rock music and there were just a couple of bands there...  But when Zeppelin arrived, it was a whole new bargain.  And when the first Black Sabbath album came out about eight months later, it was like there had been a change in popular music.

As far as the relationship goes, we've often crossed paths during our career and we spent time with each other socially.  We may have a drink, go out, get high, go watch them play, check out their music...  Each of us as individual members of Black Sabbath would mingle with the guys.  I though the things were pretty OK with everybody.

On many live recordings from the 70's, we can hear the band (more precisely Tony Iommi and yourself) jam around riffs and melodies which became songs on following albums.  Some examples of this would include "Megalomania" and "Rock 'n' Roll Doctor".  Were those real improvisations or were these ideas you had found offstage which you were trying onstage in order to see if they could be used as song material ?

Some of it was improvisations and some of it was an idea that Tony might have.  We would kind of run through the little bit, take it on to the stage and play them to see if it worked - things like that.  But very much of it was definitely improvisation on the stage.

You know, [our] very early shows were quite lengthy back in the early 70's.  I think they were probably an hour and forty-five minutes to two hour shows.  At least thirty minutes of that was basically improvisation.  We did have a kind of a format we knew beforehand that we would try to adhere to, but often the format would change without any of us really knowing.  Tony might just take it somewhere else.  It was just freeform playing that was pretty popular back in the early 70's.  A lot of it is just spontaneous and total improvisation.  And we do that onstage, live in front of everybody.  And then it's all the time during soundchecks and things like that.  Tony might have written something we would all want to try out, see how that might work...  We did that too.  So it was a little bit of both actually.

You left the band in August 1980, due to your personal problems and addictions.  During this time we more or less lose track of your activities until the time you rejoined Sabbath in 1983.  What was happening with you in between these dates?

When I left the band the first time, it was during the Heaven And Hell period.  My addiction had reached the point where all addictions go to eventually.  It had reached the point where it had become more important than anything else in my life.  The addiction had become more important than me, more important than my wife at the time, more important than my children, more important than my responsibilities, more important than Black Sabbath, more important than anything.  The addiction was king.  King Alcohol was my life, (as well as) anything else that I could get my hands on at the time.  What happened was that I went back to southern California with my wife, (where) I stayed in bed for nearly a year.  All I did was drink and use [i.e. "take drugs"] and sleep.  I stayed in bed for a year directly from Heaven And Hell.  I very rarely socialized.  I pulled the shades down and...  That was it.

I was dealing with grief.  I was dealing with all kind of problems.  I didn't know (this) at the time, but today I can look back and go, "Yes, I was dealing with this and that...".  But I didn't do that at the time.  I didn't realize that I was in the grip of a progressive illness that was going to kill me.  I had no idea of what was ahead because it got definitely worse from that point.  That was bad enough but it got a lot worse that that.

Before 1983, my drinking and using got worse and worse and worse, until I finally started to go to a hospital for treatment.  There was one particular instance where I was able to get some sobriety.  The guys (Tony and Geezer) had learned at that time that I was trying to get sober.  They were very happy about that.  They were really supportive.

I was invited to come over and see if I could do a record.  And that, of course, was Born Again with Ian Gillan in 1983.  I did that album sober.  I'm completely clean and sober on that album.  In 1980, when we did Heaven And Hell, I was completely oblivious.  I was totally loaded and I had no comprehension of ever recording Heaven And Hell.  It's really a vague memory.  I don't really remember recording anything of Heaven And Hell.

You came back in the band for the recording of the brilliant Born Again album.  How was the mood in the band during the recording ?

From where I was (just keep in mind that I was very newly sober), I was concentrating on making a really good job.  (I was) trying to be the best that I could, but at the same time feeling very fragile and very scared.  That was kind of the atmosphere that I was feeling at the time.  I was scared because I didn't want to drink again and screw things up.  And so for me it was a very challenging year doing Born Again.  But I totally enjoyed being with Tony, Geezer and Ian.  It was great.  Just doing it, playing and recording, was just fantastic.  And I thought that everybody was great.  I don't really have any bad memories of the Born Again album.

The only thing that I had going on were my own issues which had nothing to do with the band or with the album.  The things that were going on that were problematic to me, because I was very very new in my recovery.  I was trying to do a good job and had screwed up righteously by walking away during the Heaven And Hell tour.  And I'm very ashamed of that.  I know I'd let a lot of people down.  So when it was time to make Born Again, I didn't want to go through and repeat that again.

But that actually did happen at the end of Born Again.  I knew that we would have to tour and I felt so overwhelmed by the idea of touring.  I was feeling scared by the idea of touring sober.  And so what I did instead was (that) I drank again.  And I became so ill that I had to go back to the United States and (thus) failed to go on the Born Again tour.

Can you tell us about the David Donato period?  Did you even rehearse with him before he was fired?

Yes, I knew David.  He is a very nice gentleman.  I liked the guy a lot.  But keep in mind that the biggest thing that was going on for me during this period (of recording Born Again and doing rehearsals in 1984 with Black Sabbath and David Donato) was that I was fighting for my life at that time.  After Born Again, I had got drunk again and went through a horrible period which lasted for about four months.  I finally came back into reality.  I think it was January 2nd or 3rd, 1984.

When I got sober in 1984, sobriety became my absolute number one focus.  It had to be.  I knew it was life or death, so I knew that's where my focus had to be.  I know that it can sound pretty selfish and in a way it IS selfish, but as I said, I was fighting for my life at the time.  So when I started rehearsals with the Sabbs (Tony, Geez and David Donato), I was very new again in my sobriety (and) starting yet another period of sobriety.  And it felt different this time (around).  My sobriety felt different in the sense that I knew that I had to be ruthlessly honest with the guys, which is something that I had failed to do in 1983.  I had a very bitter experience in 1983, even though I loved doing the album.  I knew that I needed to be honest with myself and everybody around me.

During the rehearsals with David Donato, I knew that one of the reasons why I'd been unhappy and why I couldn't allow myself to be fully immersed in the band, was because Ozz wasn't there.... and it was a nagging truth.  It was something I had to come to terms with that and in very early 1984 I came to term with that truth. I was honest enough to admit that to myself, and admit that to Tony and Geezer at that time.  So, very very sadly, I left Black Sabbath.  And this time, I didn't drink.  I didn't do what I had done in 1983 and stayed sober.  And I left with some honor and dignity.  I left because I didn't want to bring any more trouble to the guys in the band.  I didn't want to hurt anybody again.

The truth of the matter was I was having a very tough time with the idea of me, Tony and Geezer playing with another singer.  There had already been two singers [after Ozzy] at the time.  I had a tough time bringing myself to that realization of being with a different singer again.  So I very sadly bowed out and left the band.

Between "Live Aid" (in 1985) and the release of your first solo album "Along The Way" in 1990, we more or less lose track of you once again.  Can you talk about what you did during those years?  Are you the same Bill Ward that was part of "Blue Thunder" around 1988?

Yes, we did Blue Thunder.  You know, I'm a big fan of Walter Trout's AND I'm a big fan of Tim Bogart's. We just got together and that was just a jam thing that we did.  It didn't last all that long actually.  I was still having some problems in my sobriety - not that I was drinking anymore, these were just living problems.  So, we got together for fun and for free.  We just jammed out and, you know, we had a good time. There was a couple of gigs that I did have to miss but yes, I'm the same guy that played with Blue Thunder.

What happened to me from 1984?  Well,  I got invited for Live Aid.  I came in and I played that gig sober.  I was a bit out of shape.  I was about a year and a half, or maybe fourteen months sober at the time, so Live Aid was a pretty big deal.  Keep in mind that it was a big deal for me just to get on a plane and go to Philadelphia to meet up with the band.  It was a big deal because in my drinking years an aircraft had always been a floating bar - a flying bar to me.  And now I was going to get on an aircraft totally sober and go to Philadelphia and play a gig.  I had never experienced that before.  Live Aid was my first sober gig.  And that was the gig that I had always been afraid of.  I was afraid of it when I was doing Born Again.  I drank over that kind of stuff.  But this time, I didn't drink again and Live Aid was my very first sober concert that I ever played.

What happened after that?  Well, I tried to make a living for myself and I started to try to write my own music.  That's what I was doing and that's what I've continued to do until right now this morning!  I was actually still writing music this morning, which is April 23rd 2005.  [laugh]

How were you contacted to do the "reunion set" in Costa Mesa on the 11/15/92?  How did it feel being onstage with the original line up for the first time in years?

To do the reunion in Costa Mesa in 1992, I got a phone call from Gloria Butler [Note : Geezer's wife & manager].  She told there was going to be a gig together there in Costa Mesa.  She asked if I could get down for the gig.  I got that call the day before the gig.  I was in northern California, about six or seven hundred miles from where the gig was!  So I hopped in a car, drove madly on the freeway and I was there.  I just waited there.  I was backstage and I waited.  The first night we were all backstage and it didn't happen.  And the second night, Ozzy just... came in!  And I absolutely had a blast there.  I couldn't find anything more pleasurable than to get up there with my friends and play.  I absolutely had a blast.  I was playing on Randy Castillo's kits.  Sadly, Randy has died now, but you know, we had a great time there.  A wonderful time.

How come you were drumming with Sabbath during the 1994 South American shows?  What circumstances led you there?

[laugh]  Errr... The circumstance that lead me there was an angry reaction.  What happened was Sabbath - when I say "Sabbath" I mean the original members of Black Sabbath - had been looking to put some things together in respect of a tour.  And at that time we were all about to sign off basically, sign contracts, which is what we do.  But then Ozzy didn't sign off.  I was really really upset and disappointed.  I was really hoping that we were all going to get together and just kick a**.  So there was this offer on the table: The "Tony's" (Tony Martin and Tony Iommi - those who had been called Sabbath), had an opportunity to go to South America to tour.  I hadn't played for a long long time.  I knew some of the Sabbath songs but I didn't know all the other songs on which Tony Martin and Tony Iommi had been working on.  So there were some songs on which I had absolutely no clue.  I worked real hard to study them and get them into shape for that tour.

I think I failed pretty miserably in getting the songs the way that Cozy had played them...  I play like Bill, I can't play like anybody else!   And that was an unexpected opportunity.  I wasn't able to put all my things together at time for those first gigs, so I really had to feel my way through those songs.  I tried to learn them with the amount of time that we had.  I tried to learn them to the best of my ability.  And guess what?  When I was doing those gigs, as much as I like Tony Martin who's a real nice guy, the same thing happened again.  I was onstage with a singer that wasn't Ozzy.  And just as it had happened before in 1984 with David Donato, it just didn't feel the same.

That was just a one-off thing.  I don't regret that I did it because I learned some things about myself and it was a good learning experience.  I got to see the horror in South America, the extreme poverty...

You know, if I look back in my insight, I could have reacted differently.  I could have stayed within my boundaries.  What I had granted at that time was that I would never rejoined Tony or Geezer without Ozzy.  Those were my boundaries, and they had been in place for a long long time.  That's probably why a lot of people might not have heard of me or seen me.  I made the decision back in 1984 to never play with Black Sabbath unless it was the original line-up.  And I stuck to it for quite a long time.  A lot of that was about honoring Ozzy.  I had to amend much with Ozzy and the only way that I knew to make a decent amend was to never try to do Sabbath without Ozz.  That's how I feel about that.

When the opportunity finally came for us to tour and Ozz didn't want to do it, for a few months I thought that if Ozzy didn't want to do it, then it was OK for me to go out and be with another singer.  Now I can see that feeling in some ways was wrong.  I did cross the boundaries that I had in place.  Through those ten years (from 1984 up to that point), there were lots of times where I really missed playing with Tony and Geez.  AND with Ozz of course.  Lots of times where I would have dearly loved to pick up the phone and say: "I would love to come back and play".  I missed them, absolutely horribly and terribly.  But I tried to do the right thing.  I had done the wrong thing when I was drinking and all, so I tried to do the right thing for a change.

During the 2001 Ozzfest tour, you were playing a new song onstage, "Scary Dreams".  When and how was this song written?  Will we see it released someday?

I don't know about it being released, but I heard a rumor from the corporates and from the people who do these things that it was a bit too commercial.  Personally, I though it had all the makings of a really good song.

How it came about was when we were in one of our last writing sessions (which was a few years ago now) in Monmouth, where we normally do our writing and a lot of our rehearsing.  Tony had this very cool jazz lick that's at the beginning of the song.  I threw a couple of lyrics around, a couple of melodies, and we started developing the song.  Geez started putting his parts too.  I came up with a couple of drum things and ideas.  And that's how it developed.

The "Scary Dreams" part - the melody and that lyric - I actually got that idea from Ozzy.  One of the things I've found about Ozzy is if you stand close enough to him and listen long enough, he has songs that come out of him!  From minute to minute literally, every single day, you could actually sit down with a pencil and a pad and literally write everything down.  You would have enough material for music for an album or probably two or three albums, you know [laugh].  The guy is just amazing if you just listen!  And of course, one day he was talking about his scary head.  I just stopped and went: "How my God, what a great title for a song!"  And then I thought of "Scary Dreams".  He actually calls his head something else, but I'm not going to say what it is because that belongs to him.  So when I came home, I ran upstairs, took my pen and paper and wrote down "Scary Dreams".  It was actually him that came up with the title, just because he was having a conversation with somebody.

So I brought some ideas, Geez seemed to like it, Tony seemed to like it.  When went on from there, they put it together and we built the song.  It was a band effort, unlike what was on that live album that we did, REUNION. Scary Dreams was actually a band effort at doing some new material since our live album.

Thank you for having answered all these questions. Just before we leave, do you have a message for your fans reading these lines ?

Bill's message - in MP3 format